I'm Morra Aarons-Mele and this is the Anxious Achiever. We look at stories from business leaders, who've dealt with anxiety, depression, or other mental health challenges. How they fell down, how they pick themselves up and how they hope work will change in the future.
MAM: I have to ask you, I mean, what's it been like running a brick and mortar store during the pandemic?
Gillian Stein: I think there's things I'd rather be doing, I guess I could say. It's been a challenge. It's been a challenge. I think we've fared as well as anybody could- But the strength of our business is really in the service that we provide. And so that's very much a hands on, face-to-face experience. And it's also about being able to come in and touch the product.
And so when you literally can't have customers come into your store, that causes a lot of challenges.
Morra Aarons-Me...: I would imagine. I'm so curious because, I guess I'm a creator, I'm recording in my closet.
Gillian Stein: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Morra Aarons-Me...: I'm not using any video equipment. How has your business, an old business, thought about servicing a whole new generation of people who are creating pretty high tech stuff in their closets?
Gillian Stein: Well, that's where I get excited.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So our business was really founded on that very traditional, photo enthusiast. So you can really picture whether it's a bird or portrait photography-
Morra Aarons-Me...: My husband, my husband.
Gillian Stein: And which are wonderful.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yes.
Gillian Stein: I think it's fabulous. But obviously over the years, the industry has changed. And so while a lot of people in our space would see the smartphone or as others call it, the camera phone-As disrupting the industry and being a negative, I actually see it as a positive. And for our business, for Henry's, we see it as a great opportunity. Because there's now more people who are creating content than ever before.
Morra Aarons-Me...: That's cool. Well, let's dive in because cameras are not really the reason I'm having you on the show. You are CEO, we've established your business and you have bipolar disorder. How does that play out every day? Does it play out every day? Or is it more a thing that you think about monthly, yearly, less?
Gillian Stein: It's a good question. When I was young, it was something that I would've thought about daily. And I was actually just talking with someone the other day about how I'm at a point in my life where it isn't. I mean, I take my medication daily, so, I pop a few pills every evening. But that's sort of as far as I go on a daily basis thinking about it. I'm always thinking about my mental health, but I don't feel like not ... I know I don't. Having bipolar disorder isn't something that defines me on a daily basis.
Morra Aarons-Me...: I think, because those of us who have been travelers with a pretty serious mental health condition, we do sort of live in the state of somewhat anticipation. Like every once in a while, there's a warning sign-
Gillian Stein: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Morra Aarons-Me...: You think, "Oh gosh, is this coming back?" Have you had one of those recently?
Gillian Stein: The way I look at it is, is I'm somebody who is very attune to my mental health. And I know I just said it isn't something I think about daily, I guess having bipolar disorder is not what I think about daily. But my mental health is. And so-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: Every day, I'm constantly checking in with myself. How is my mood? How am I feeling? Am I tired? Am I sluggish? Am I a little bit too hyper? Is there something that's changed and I'm constantly adjusting? It's not something that I think you sort of, at least for me, set and forget. And then wait until something big happens. It's this constant tuning.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So I can't, obviously with like the pandemic, I can say, that's been hard and there's definitely been sort of periods of lots of people have talked about languishing and no question that that's been a struggle.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: But again, no, sort of, "Oh no, this is coming. What's going to happen next?" Because I'm much more proactive than that.
Morra Aarons-Me...: That's really remarkable because stress, of course, can trigger episodes-
Gillian Stein: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Morra Aarons-Me...: Right? And I would imagine-
Gillian Stein: Yes.
Morra Aarons-Me...: It's been very stressful running a business during-
Gillian Stein: Yes.
Morra Aarons-Me...: The last two years.
Gillian Stein: It has, it has. Which is why though, then I like ... so self care is something that like, as I'm going through this, for the last two years focusing on how do I make sure I'm managing my stress levels? Has been the top priority for me.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. What made you want to sort of come out and talk about this? What was the impetus?
Gillian Stein: So a few things, the sort of the trigger I guess-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And this was a few years ago. So, it's taken me a few years from when I said that I wanted to start to be more public about the challenges that I have to actually doing it.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And so I'd say this was probably about three years ago where I was at a funeral. I knew the husband well, and his wife had died by suicide. And they had two children who were in their late teens, early twenties, just getting to that period where they're launching.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And a time where I can only, when I think back to being that age, how important it was to have my mother. And at the funeral, they never talked about how she died. The kids couldn't talk about ... I don't even know what they know. I don't know if they knew how she died. But they definitely couldn't talk about it publicly. And I just remember sitting there thinking, "How are these kids going to grieve? How are they going to overcome this?" They are probably thinking that they'repartially responsible for it. And sitting there realizing that something we think the stigma, we think we're getting better.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: We are getting better, but clearly we're not good enough at eliminating that stigma. If that's where you're sitting and that's what you're seeing. And I just felt like I'm part of the problem. If I don't speak up and if I don't speak about my story, then I'm perpetuating the stigma. And I just felt like it was time for me say, "No, you can be successful. You can be happy with different mental health challenges, with mental illness. But you need to be able to talk about it so that then you can go and get help and support." And so that, to me, was that turning point.
That was about three years ago and then sort of coming to, I guess it was about a month ago where I made it very public-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: Was I guess it felt right for me. Part of it is I needed to be in a space where I could handle it. And that definitely didn't feel right to do in the middle of the pandemic, for sure-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: As I was going through my own challenges. But I think our community needs it. I definitely know that our employees need it. And everybody's struggling wherever I go. Mental health is such a huge challenge that we're all struggling with coming through this pandemic, that we have to talk about it. I just, I couldn't wait any longer.
Morra Aarons-Me...: I'm curious, this is kind of a logistics question. But when you're the CEO of a big company and you're not Elon Musk, who I guess just tweets whatever that hell he wants. But you can't just be like, "La, la, la, I'm bipolar." And leave it. Was there a strategy? Did you have to talk to your family, to your board? How did you approach it logistically?
Gillian Stein: Yeah, that's a good question. And it's true, you can't. And that's probably part of the reason why people don't just speak about it. For me, I'm very lucky that it's a private business that I run-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And it is my family. And so I have the support of my family, which is also the board. But we did talk about, what are the risks? What would happen to some of our partner relationships? What would happen with our banking relationship? Because the concern is always that you're really, at the end of the day, it's, can you be trusted? The bank cares most about the leadership team. Are they people that will be able to carry out the plan that they've said that they're going to?
And so we had to think really hard about whether this was going to have a negative impact. And I think we all agreed that at this point in time, that it was safe to do it. And that if there was going to be a company that was going to have an issue with it, it wouldn't be everybody. And if that's really where somebody's values are, then that's likely not somebody that we would want to do business with anyways. And we were prepared that if we needed to, we would walk away. But it was a lot of conversations to say whether this was the right thing to do. And ultimately, I think we all agreed that the potential positives and benefits far outweighed any of the risks.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Was anyone's reaction surprising to you?
Gillian Stein: Surprisingly positive-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: I would say. I don't think I expected ... I haven't had anything negative. But I've been surprised at how many people have shared their own experiences.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And maybe I shouldn't be because if you look at the statistics, clearly, everybody in some way, shape or form is going to suffer or have somebody very close to them who has suffered from mental illness. But I was definitely surprised with who came forward and what they said and what their stories were. But again, pleasantly surprised.
Morra Aarons-Me...: That's good. Now of course, this wasn't just your story. Because not only do you work in a family business, but from what I've read, your family shares a mental health history, in a way.
Gillian Stein: Yeah.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Can you talk about that? And then how that family dynamic played out in sharing?
Gillian Stein: So it goes back, as far as we know, mental illness is still something that's relatively new.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So we've been believe that my ... well, we know that my grandfather died by suicide. But we believe that he had bipolar disorder, that's the part where nobody actually knows for sure. We believe that he had bipolar disorder. My father has been diagnosed with bipolar disorder and he struggled with it when he was younger. I think the what's sort of the silver lining is that because of what happened to my grandfather, both my mother and my father knew what could happen-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And were there for very diligent about looking out for signs and symptoms and taking action.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And even at a time, this would've been in the late seventies, early eighties, seeing a psychiatrist was not particularly popular. The idea of medication was still very new. So getting help and talking about it at that point was definitely something that wasn't very common.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: But they made that a priority. And so we didn't necessarily grow up in a house where we didn't talk about the fact that my father had bipolar disorder. It wasn't until I was in my late teens, just before I got diagnosed, that I found out and realized that my grandfather didn't actually die of a stroke.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Was your experience of your dad, he was so well managed that like he didn't go up and down and he didn't manifest it.
Gillian Stein: No, I wouldn't say that.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: I wouldn't say that. My dad's experiences of sort of the highs and lows were, in general, he had a lot more lows. So definitely leaned more towards the depression-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: But his highs really manifested in work. And he worked a lot. So for me, growing up, he was just at work a lot. And as a kid, you don't really think twice about that.
Morra Aarons-Me...: And I would imagine in that era as the man who runs a big company, growing company too. Like working a lot and being a little hyper, probably worked for him in some level when it was working.
Gillian Stein: When it was working. And that's the thing about it and sometimes people talk about sort of the benefits of bipolar. And I guess I would say, the one thing is you can't control is when you have your highs and when you have your lows.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Exactly.
Gillian Stein: And it also depends on what your highs are. You can engage in really destructive behavior, both with the highs and the lows. So luckily, in his case it was overwork and then burnout. But he did end up having a heart attack when he was 47 because he couldn't handle the stress.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Wow. Wow.
Gillian Stein: Yeah.
Morra Aarons-Me...: That's a high price to pay.
Gillian Stein: It is. It is. I mean, he built a fantastic business and the good thing is that from that he learned that he needed to step back and he needed to change his lifestyle and he did. And that's probably part of why he's much calmer and happier today than he was when he was building this great business.
Morra Aarons-Me...: So did you find out about his bipolar at a similar time, when you found out about your own? How did that all unfold?
Gillian Stein: I was probably, I guess in my last year of high school. And there was some things going on, I guess, with some of my friends in personal life and he felt that it was the time to share it with me. And that was about a year before I got diagnosed. I don't think he necessarily saw that that was something that was coming for me, necessarily. Just the way the timing worked out.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Were you shocked when he told you?
Gillian Stein: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Morra Aarons-Me...: What about your mom? Because there are others in your family who also suffer from what I've read. How does that shake out? Running a family business and having a family with complicated mental stuff?
Gillian Stein: My mom is our rock.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So my mom is the one who keeps an eye out for everybody. She's tough. She's tough as nails. But she makes sure that you get the help that you need and you can't wallow. So, for when my dad was younger and struggling and they first married, she said, "I'll leave you if you don't deal with this." She threatened him with divorce and luckily he listened.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Wow.
Gillian Stein: So when I was first ... or just before I was diagnosed. But when I had sort of my first sort of real episode where clearly something was wrong. I was living in Montreal at the time I was in university and we're from Toronto. And I called her, she got on the plane the next day and was there to help me and didn't leave until I had had the help.
Morra Aarons-Me...: What happened?
Gillian Stein: Yeah. I still don't know why I was there, but I was at the airport in Montreal. To this day, if I was supposed to be picking somebody up and I didn't pick you up, I apologize. But I was at the Montreal airport and for some reason I was convinced that I was actually at the airport in Phoenix, Arizona. And I was actually, in reality, planning a trip to Arizona. So there was some logic here, but I had this moment where I thought that I was in the Phoenix airport and I needed a bus schedule. And I needed the bus schedule from Phoenix to Tucson.
And so while I'm standing in the Montreal airport and I'm asking them at the information desk for the bus schedule to Tucson and they're looking at me like I have three heads. Because why would they have the bus schedule? And of course I'm screaming and yelling at them, how could they not? And I'm having sort of this, very explosive reaction. And I guess the good thing is you can't see me, but I'm five feet tall. So I'm a very small, petite woman. So I think the only positive here was that because I was so small, nobody was worried that I was going to do any damage to anything. But it was a pretty explosive moment.
And then I rushed out of there frustrated, angry, couldn't understand where I was, what was going on. I still don't know how I got home that day. Like, other than that moment when I'm in the airport and when I'm getting out of the parking lot, everything else is very gray and foggy. My mind had just betrayed me.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Wow. And what happened after that? What happened when you got home?
Gillian Stein: So like I said, I don't really remember.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Huh.
Gillian Stein: Which is the scary part. There's a lot of that first year of university that I don't remember and not for the fun reasons that most people don't remember their first year of university. Part of it, I guess, is I'm very good at compartmentalizing. And if I don't want to remember something, I'm really good at forgetting it.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: But I think that's also part of having that type of experience is you don't remember it all.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Right.
Gillian Stein: So all I know is that at some point I called my mother. And I'm assuming that I hid in my room until she came. I was living in residence at the time. And so I would've had shared space of everything and I probably just would've hid as much as possible. Because I was scared.
Morra Aarons-Me...: So it sounds like ... can I just ask a little bit? I mean, it sounds like you've been remarkably sort of well managed. But do you think you tend more towards the manic than the depressive, unlike your dad or?
Gillian Stein: Probably-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: I think it's easier for me to go low than it is for me to go high. To be honest, I don't know what I would be like if I wasn't medicated, that's the part that's the unknown.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: Right. It's been so long.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Are you ever curious?
Gillian Stein: Very.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: Very curious, very curious. And I'm tempted to play around with it, but not enough to risk being where I once was.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. I had Paul English on the show who co-founded Kayak, when he sold for $2 billion. And he's bipolar and he said that the highs would be worth his whole fortune if he could capture that feeling in a bottle.
Gillian Stein: So I listened to that podcast the other day. And I was fascinated because I actually, I don't know, I'm curious to ... in the research that I had done, as I was talking about going public is there's very few CEOs who have actually gone public-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Very few.
Gillian Stein: Especially about having bipolar disorder. So I was very excited to hear that podcast. So, everybody's experience is different. That's the interesting thing about bipolar disorder. We're not similar. There's highs and lows, but how those manifest are very different. And so, one would be that, some of us experience sort of that psychotic element or delusions where you think you're somewhere, you think you can do something, but it's not based in reality.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: And that can be really dangerous and scary. I also find for me that the mania can be extreme irritability-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yes.
Gillian Stein: And so that's not good either. I have these very high expectations and I can go at a certain pace. But others around me can't. And then the irritability that comes with that is, it's not fair. It's not fair to other people and it doesn't feel good. So, for me, it's not something that I am trying to go after-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: If that makes sense.
Morra Aarons-Me...: How have you come to know yourself as a leader? I mean, you were diagnosed so very young, way before you worked at the company. How do you think that you're bipolar diagnosis and this knowledge affected both your ambition and the way you sort of set yourself up as a leader? I mean, did you know you were going to be CEO of the family business when you-
Gillian Stein: No.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Were in college? No.
Gillian Stein: Nope. That was never the plan. Never the plan. No, my life has taken many twists and turns. My career path is very confusing, yet somehow to me it makes perfect sense. Because it gives me, I think I've got a lot of diversity, it brings lots of different perspective to the table. But I guess I would say that all of us, our leadership styles are influenced by who we are and our past experiences. So no question, having this experience along with everything else has shaped me.
For me, I think that it makes me really appreciate the value of diversity and not just, we talk a lot about gender diversity and ethnic diversity. But there's also a diversity of thought, which is ultimately what we're trying to get to. And I have two children who are neuro-diverse. So, you think about just how our brains work and that's important. And I definitely have sort of this, I guess, deep personal experience that makes me say that, you never know what someone else is experiencing. So I'm very quick to not judge. Makes me sort of spend more time trying to understand people. There's always more to a story, it gives me a sense of curiosity. And it's very humbling.
And that, I feel is, for me, one of my strengths is that I'm very comfortable to consult and surround myself with advisors. I never want to be the smartest person in the room, I want to surround myself by people who are experts in their area and I want to be collaborative. And I think that that comes from that curiosity, that humbling experience-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: My style of leadership is the opposite of command and control.
Morra Aarons-Me...: I was just reflecting. It's funny because Paul was very much that kind of leader too
But the image of the fanciful, I want to say, Elon Musk inspired man-
Gillian Stein: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Morra Aarons-Me...: CEO is the opposite of that. It's like charging forth into unknown territory, unafraid, blah, blah, blah.
Gillian Stein: I think that's dangerous.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: But I think it's dangerous for any business. So whether we're talking about somebody with mental health issues or just good governance is important-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: For any business of any size. And if you look at a public company, there's a reason why there needs to be transparency and there's checks and balances and appropriate reporting. And even though, I work for a private family business, I feel it's really important to bring those good practices into our business. Because I think that's what keeps the business stable. It's how you manage risk. And if you just have one person who is making all the decisions, then regardless of their mental state, like no one person should ever be able to make all the decisions. I think that's dangerous. So, even in our business, I'm the CEO, but I can't sign off on any major contracts or spending without a second signature. And I like it that way.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. What other guardrails, you've mentioned collaborative sort of trusted people around you, you've mentioned exercise. What other guardrails of infrastructure do you have in place to stay well?
Gillian Stein: So on the personal front, it's a lot about the self care. So whether it's the exercise, sleep to me is the absolute, most precious thing that I will protect. To me, that's the biggest trigger of stress. And then from there, any sort of potential ups or downs. And so I will protect sleep at all costs. My number one priority.
I'm very open with my immediate family. My husband is somebody that I've said from day one. It's like, at any point, if you see something that doesn't seem right, if you see a change in my behavior, I need you to call it out if I don't notice it myself and help me advocate. So that's really important. And again, I've been very deliberate about the network that I built around myself. And so I'm part of an organization and part of YPO, Young Presidents Organization. And within that, we have forums where it's groups of CEOs. And the value of it is that it's a group of people who are all committed to being vulnerable with each other. There's incredible amount out of trust and confidentiality. So the expectation that you can say absolutely anything to the people in this group and know that it won't go anywhere and they're there purely to support you. And not even to give you
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advice, but just to support you.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: And has been incredibly important, especially ever since I took over the business. And they say, it's lonely at the top. Well, you need that around you.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So, that's really important. And again, and then in the business, I think it's no different than any other business when it comes to governance.
Morra Aarons-Me...: My last question for you is, as you're talking to media and business media about this kind of stuff, what do you want the business media to know? Or do their homework on when it comes to mental illness? Because I think we are going to see more stories, thank God, as the stigma lessens. But the media has to cover it right, too.
Gillian Stein: They do. And I think the first part is actually covering it. So, as you say, I agree. I hope we hear more stories because statistically it's impossible that there have not been more.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative). My joke when I'm in a gathering and people say, "Well, what do you write about?" And I say, "I write about anxiety and leadership." People always say to me, "Are there anxious leaders?" I'm like, "What?"
Gillian Stein: The most.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: But the thing is, is that there's a lot of talk about depression and anxiety. And that in general, that has become much more normalized-
Morra Aarons-Me...: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Gillian Stein: But it's still not normalized in the business community.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah.
Gillian Stein: So even if we're talking about just starting from ground zero, which is, we need to be much more open, we need to talk about it more. So that there isn't this ... to be able to show that you can be successful, you can be trusted, you can run a business. And there's no reason that you shouldn't be supported in the business community, is really important for that story to be shared.
Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you, Gillian. Thank you for sharing your story.
Gillian Stein: Thank you for having me. I appreciate you helping me share it.