Morra Aarons-Mele: I'm Morra Aarons-Mele and this is The Anxious Achiever. We look at stories from business leaders who've dealt with anxiety, depression, or other mental health challenges. How they felt down, how they picked themselves up and how they hope work will change in the future.

Sharon Salzberg: Interesting is one word. I mean, it's surprising. It's amazing. It's kind of mind blowing really.

Morra Aarons-Mele: Really?

Sharon Salzberg: I went to India when I was a college student on an independent study program to study meditation. I got permission to create this project. I went in 1970 and I began my first meditation retreat in January 1971. So as my friends say, before it was cool. way before. I was doing it way before. And I came back, finished school, went back to India. And when I left India in 1974, it was with the instruction of one of my teachers, this woman named Dipa Ma to teach myself, which I also felt was ridiculous. But she said, "When you go back to the states, you'll be teaching." And I thought, no. But of course, as life unfolded, she was correct.

You know in those days it'd be a party or some social situation and people would say, "What do you do?" And I'd say, "I teach meditation." And they'd kind of like go, "Oh, that's weird." And sort of sidle away or occasionally somebody would ask me, did you meet the Beatles over there? I'd say, "No. Sadly, they went when I was in high school." And there was different tradition altogether, but you know. And then through the years I've watched, of course with some amazement where I think largely because of the science and the research and really the re-languaging, it's a much greater understanding that meditation mindfulness doesn't need to be tied to a belief system or a faith tradition. It's about learning how to pay attention differently.

So then I'd be at that same kind of situation and I'd be introduced as a meditation teacher and people would say, "I'm so stressed out. I could use some of that." Or occasionally I'd hear, "My partner should really meet you. Be really good for them." And time has gone on and I'd say back when I was still going to parties and social situations, the most common comment I would hear was, oh, I tried that once, I failed at it. And of course we don't believe you can fail it at all. So that brings up the question is what do people expect? And what's the understanding about what's going to happen, but we're definitely in a whole other era.

Morra Aarons-Me...: We'll talk about the failure concept in a little bit, but one quote that I think, I can't remember if you wrote it, if you said it, but I have it as, from when you went to India, you said, "I felt not on the margins for the first time in my life." What did that experience and learning meditation do for you?

Sharon Salzberg: I think it actually began before I went to India. It was one of the reasons I went to begin with. I took an Asian philosophy course when I was a sophomore. I'm a product I should also say of the New York City public school system, which means I skipped two grades. So I went to college when I was 16. Went to NU when I was 18. And as a sophomore in college, there was a philosophy requirement. And I just looked at the schedule. I saw an Asian philosophy course and I thought, oh, that looks convenient. It's on Tuesday or something, let me do that one.

And it was actually in the context of the course that that shift you're describing began because when the instructor was talking about Buddhism, he talked of course about the Buddhist very famous kind of commentary on the suffering in life. And that suffering is a natural and an inevitable part of life. And for many people, that's sort of a depressing message and a real turnoff. But for me, it was maybe the first time in my life I felt like, oh, you're not so weird. Because I like many people had, had a very traumatic painful childhood and I felt different. My family didn't look like anybody else's family. I was living with my grandparents for a big chunk of it, for example.

My mother died when I was nine, my father was already gone, and so... But there I wasn't that class and somehow that message came to me that this is part of life. Not that we all suffer in the same measure or the same degree, but it's inevitable. You're not so different. You're not left out. And then I heard in the class that there were methods, there were techniques that people used called meditation to be a lot happier. So I was going to college in Buffalo, New York. I looked around Buffalo. I did not see it anywhere. And I thought I'm going to create an independent study project and go to India, which was ridiculous. I'd never even been to California. I was 18 years old.

Morra Aarons-Me...: But did the message of suffering make you feel heard? What was that about?

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Because you're right. And I think the failure question, a lot of people feel is they think, I don't want to suffer. I want to take a pill and feel better.

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah. Yeah.

Morra Aarons-Me...: What about you made that suffering concept attract you?

Sharon Salzberg: Well, I think partly because my family system like many was one where the conflict, the loss, pain was never spoken about. And so my internal sense of what was real was one thing. And the external confirmation of it was quite another, and this was the first time it was sort of like confirmation large, like this is a part of life, it's not just you. Because of course the presentation is that everyone else's, family's perfect. And no one's suffering at all. And it's so hard to have compassion for yourself if you feel that it's all only you. Because then of course it brings up the kind of common in thought, it must be my fault. And so to have that sense of, oh, this is a part of life, I am a part of life, was incredibly important. And I think sometimes we meet on the terrain of suffering where we can't genuinely meet anywhere else. And it's being the most vulnerable, it's being the most honest, and it's leaving aside titles or job descriptions and saying, yeah, it's rough.

Morra Aarons-Me...: It's rough out there.

Sharon Salzberg: This is really hard.

Morra Aarons-Me...: For the non-believers or uninitiated out there is meditation practice only for those who are ready to acknowledge suffering or who have capital S suffered?

Sharon Salzberg: I'm not sure it's exactly that so much as... Well now it's a little different because it's so much more available, but you have to think of me at 18, never having been to California and getting myself to India. You had to be highly motivated to make that kind of split with conventional reality, which was like, think about graduate school.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Exactly.

Sharon Salzberg: And so-

Morra Aarons-Me...: Go to dances. Yeah.

Sharon Salzberg: ... Exactly. So it's like, what does it take to develop a genuine interest so that you're going to put it into practice, is the question. Does it take a lot less now? Yes. Because it's everywhere. So maybe you just have a big curiosity about life or maybe you're not suffering terribly, but you're not sleeping that well. Or maybe you just feel things are kind of flat. It'd be interesting to see what it's like to have a more vivid sense of connection with just day to day experience, or maybe you're interested in the science and you read things about executive function and better decision making and more clarity, and you think that sounds good.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. Why not? I do want to talk about suffering and anxiety on this show because this is a show for people who have mental health struggles. I was watching a video that you did on, it was called Anxiety, Addiction and Depression and Dealing With Them in the Way of The Buddha. And you said, I think you said something like, "There's something reassuring about even saying the words addiction, anxiety, and depression, because it's inclusive. We're gathering together and we may have these horrible things, but if we can be together and talk about it, it makes connections."

Sharon Salzberg: Well. And I think it's the most healing thing of all, because there is the problem, whatever the problem is and that's genuine suffering. And I think we shouldn't discount that. One of my favorite sayings, apparently, because friends have started sending me mugs and cups with things I often say on them. So one came through that said, "Somethings just hurt." Somethings just hurt and I think we do ourselves a grave disservice by thinking, I should be better at this. Why is this such a drag? It's a drag because something's really hurt. And it's not our bad attitude. It's not our wrong way of thinking. It's not that we need to be more receptive. Something's just really hurt.

And it's also true that we might add of that things that are what I call extra suffering, which we don't need. Like a sense of isolation. It's only me. A sense of perpetuity. This is going to last the rest of my life. No, this is never going to change. A sense of blame. I should've been able to stop this. I've been meditating for 50 years now, why am I still feeling this? Or whatever it is. And those things we really learn through mindfulness as one method to catch as it's creeping into our mindstream and letting go of that, because that we don't need.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Do you still feel anxiety? Would you consider yourself an anxious person?

Sharon Salzberg: I certainly, I feel everything. I mean I would never say I didn't feel something. Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a funny mix of anxiety and withdrawal. Like I have friends who are massively anxious. Like my friend Sylvia Boorstein will describe herself as a recovering catastrophizer. She says she's 85 now. And she got interested in meditation because she was haunted by those thoughts. Now she may have exactly the same thoughts, but she can laugh at them or she can at least hold them in I don't know yet perspective. She says she'll call one of her adult children, so her children are in their 60s. I'll call one of my adult children. They don't answer the phone. Well, they must be dead. She said it never occurs to me that they're taking a shower or they fell in love and don't feel like talking to their mother. And that used to haunt her, but now there's so much more space around it even if the same thought is arising, that she really can laugh at it and wait and see, call back.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Call back.

Sharon Salzberg: And interestingly enough, she describes herself as somebody who in an actual emergency or problem, she's like a rock. She's totally steady. It's all the imagination in her mind that gets her going. So I'm not an anxious person like that. I don't tend to catastrophize, but there's a certain feeling that I get where things are out of control. Things are crazy. Someone's son just went to jail, someone else's partner is having a mental health crisis. And there's something in me that says, "Oh, this is how things are supposed to feel, because this is how they felt my whole childhood." And I think, oh, this is natural. This is right. And of course it's not natural and right. It's a problem. It's really pressure on somebody or it's hurtful for somebody. And so I have to remind myself, no, this is not an ordinary day. This is really a lot for someone to carry.

Morra Aarons-Me...: How might you do that? Is there something you could just take us through, because I think a lot of us might find that news just hits us in the middle of a work day.

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah. And I think some of it is very somatic. It's really learning what it feels like in your body when you're panicking or when you feel, I mean, another one is hyper responsibility. Like I'm going to be the one to fix this. And even though you wouldn't necessarily associate that with a certain sensation, I think we can, if we just keep paying attention and-

Morra Aarons-Me...: For me, it's like a jumpiness. It's like my whole body is awake and just needs to go run a million miles an hour.

Sharon Salzberg: ... Right. Exactly. There's something and we can learn it. And that becomes my signal. There's a certain something, I feel like this wave of energy coming up in my stomach and then something else settles like, oh, this is right. And that's my signal to say, "Well, it's not really right. This is a big problem for somebody and I can't fix it." I will do everything I can to be present, to care, whatever called for if I have some skill that is called for, and I can't imagine that I'm in control because then we're sunk. It's just not true. And there's a certain feeling when I'm taking in someone's suffering as though it we're mine to address, rather than theirs with me in some kind of presence or solidarity. And I can feel the difference.

Morra Aarons-Me...: How? Do you feel it in your body?

Sharon Salzberg: I feel it in my body. And then that is my signal to say to myself, whatever. And usually humor is a good technique like, who put you in charge of the universe. I remember I once said in front of a group of people, I felt like if I were in charge of the universe, it would be a lot better a world and someone in the class said, "Are you sure?" And so I thought for a moment, I said, "I am really sure." So sometimes I say to myself, "Are you sure?"

Morra Aarons-Me...: It's funny because I have interviewed Jerry Colonna on the show and I know that he's studied with you as well. And he is a sort of recovering hypervigilant, I think he would say. And it sounds like what you're advocating for is for those of us who might want to jump into hypervigilance and take on everyone else's anxiety, as well as assume actions is to take a breath.

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's the pause, that's the most important thing, however you do it. And it's also like I work a lot with caregivers, whether it's in their families and parents, children, or it's professionally and people who are really on the front lines of suffering, and it's because they care. It's because of the tenderness in their hearts that they do want to take it on. And then they crash inevitably and people then blame themselves. Like I am too weak to do this or I don't have the strength or know why it got so out of control. And really that's the extra layer of suffering, because it's because of one's caring that we end up in that position, but we need to learn some boundaries. We need to learn some balance. We need to learn to care for ourselves as well for others.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Is there an exercise that you might offer them? One of the things I love about our work is that you have these sort of quick meditations that you can do. I mean, what would you tell someone who's caring too much right now, but has to show up at work anyway?

Sharon Salzberg: Sometimes it really is boundary setting. And so it might be asking yourself, where is the... What can I not control? What can I actually affect and what can I not control? And sometimes I literally remind myself it's out of my hands and I will do everything. And the idea of loving kindness or compassion for somebody is that it's like a gift and we give it with the best intention and the wish that somebody use it and enjoy it. But you can't make them put on that sweater and say, "This is the best thing I've ever gotten." Or read that book you wrote and say, "I can't believe the genius." It's like, we would like that, but it doesn't always happen. And so I remind myself, sometimes this is a free, the giving gift. I'm just, I'm making this offering. And the hardest thing sometimes for people is to feel that some compassion for themselves is worthy. That it's not selfish. It's not being lazy. And because we have such impossibly perfectionistic standards, and talk about root of anxiety.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Yeah. Say more.

Sharon Salzberg: It's like, how could we ever be good enough?

Morra Aarons-Me...: Do you find this with caregivers in particular?

Sharon Salzberg: Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, it is that tenderness that leads them to the role often. And then partly because those roles, whether it's personal or professional tend to be quite under resourced in society and-

Morra Aarons-Me...: AKA paid less.

Sharon Salzberg: ... Exactly. Paid less, honored less, recognized, less. There's a lot of less. That could be a long list. And then it's a struggle. And you can't ask yourself for the impossible, but we do. And then if you do make a mistake back to failure, or you snap, you get exhausted and you get overwhelmed, you get reactive. Then you feel so terrible, but I think a lot of one's practice in life is sort of picking yourself up and starting over and making amends if that's appropriate or having lessons learned, but not sort of developing incessantly.

Morra Aarons-Me...: But that's what perfectionists are great at too.

Sharon Salzberg: Oh, totally. Totally. Like if you were the kind of person who were... If you were in the habit of evaluating yourself, like at the end of the day, like how'd I do today. Let's just say, you're the kind of person who only remembers the mistakes you made and what you didn't say so clearly. And what you could have been better at, let's just say.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Let's just say.

Sharon Salzberg: Sometimes you ask yourself, "Anything else happened today?"

Morra Aarons-Me...: Right. Could you actually ask yourself that?

Sharon Salzberg: Oh yeah. It's like one of the things we talk about a lot as a kind of healing modality as a gratitude reflection. Like write down at the end of the day three things that you're grateful for from the day. And they don't have to be magnificent or grandiose. And some people really don't like that. They think it's sentimental and it's something that makes you happy to get crumbs and you never confront an unfair system or something like that. But actually research shows that it's like a power, because if you're exhausted, if you feel depleted, if you feel you have nothing going in your life, you have nothing to give, you're not going to be that useful.

Morra Aarons-Me...: No.

Sharon Salzberg: So the things that are kind of restorative for us and pick up our energy and give us a little buoyancy, and those are important in our continued connection to others. So it's not really selfish. And it's shown that gratitude is a formidable force in that way because it's kind of rounds out the picture. It's not to say there are no problems or no real sources of suffering at all, but we need to be nourished. We need to have some resilience. And so how do we meet the moment? And so I always say it can be a small thing, but write it down.

And I also say as is true that that's not my natural conditioning. My personal conditioning, my family's conditioning, my cultural conditioning is such that I'm so much more likely to come to the end of the day and think about what I can complain about. And it's always like, I didn't show up in the right way. I didn't say the right thing or that person wasn't really there for me. Or back in the day when I was traveling incessantly, there was always an airline and there's always a phone service or one's computer program or something. And that's just where my attention goes. And so it was a very conscious decision, not through force or coercion, but through intentionality to say, "Okay, what else? What else happened today?"

Morra Aarons-Me...: So you're not telling people that they have to become all gratitude and no grumble. You could still ease yourself out of the grumble.

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah. Or at least, the word is balance.

Morra Aarons-Me...: What?

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah. I mean grumble, which is a great term. It's inevitable really. And it would be unreal to imagine such sweetness.

Morra Aarons-Me...: I was reading about you in your business travel life, I guess, back in the former times. And it's funny, it must be weird for a lot of people who read you and

know you as the great teacher to think of you sort of suffering on Southwest Airlines with the rest of us poor schleps. But you were saying that it can be hard for you. The plane is late, you're going to miss your connection. You might not make it to that. And that, that makes you really anxious, just like it makes the rest of us. Has this changed for you during the pandemic or has that kind of anxiety found another place to go?

Sharon Salzberg: Well, I'm not traveling at all. I haven't been on airplane since March 2nd, I think 2020.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Wow. Me for March 4th. March 4th, 2020.

Sharon Salzberg: Really? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think to the degree that I project into the future, because that was the problem sitting on the airplane, I'm going to be late, what's going to happen. I'm going to miss the lecture. And also a tremendous amount of self-blame because that is my habit. I was so stupid. Why did I make this reservation? I should have known better. Why didn't I leave an extra day? So there's always another channel for self-blame pandemic or not. Like, "Why did I do that?"

No, I think my big resolve in the pandemic thus far has been to try to be kinder and that has included toward myself. So not that, I don't think I was mean, but just things like, because this space that I didn't have before, because I was always not just on the airplane, but figuring out who's going to pick me up the airport, where am I going to stay? And you're just like, that's a little wiped clean right now. So I take the time, like if I write an email, not to just press send right away. And to take a few breaths and then read it again and then think, do I actually want to send it in this form? And often it's such a strange form of communication. You can sound so terse and you didn't mean it. And so I rewrite it in some way and then I press present, and just sort of taking the time in those ways has really been a delight actually.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Why not? Sharon, you've said, "I think of anxiety and depression as a manifestation of a deep yearning we have as humans to be happy, free, have a sense of belonging. The yearning is the point don't feel squeamish or embarrassed. There's a wish to be happy underneath." Really?

Sharon Salzberg: Well, I mean, I think that's our basic human dilemma that every one of us wants to be happy, not in a superficial way, like a pleasing day only. But a really deep sense of feeling at home somewhere in this body, in this mind, with one another, with this planet, on this planet. And the problem many spiritual systems would say is not that yearning, it's not the desire, it's that we have bad aim. Either we have been taught myths and lies. If you only accumulate enough endlessly, you'll be happy. You'll be safe. It's like all totems against change and death. Like let's get another one. Let's get another car or painting or a house or orange or whatever it is. And depending on other habits, other reinforcements we can sort of dive off the deep end of that.

Or we've been taught we don't really count. We don't matter. We're not capable of... It's not the same as saying we're perfect, but we are capable of change and growth and understanding every single one of us, and not all of us were brought up that way, with that, that reinforcement. So we have that yearning and it's so distorted because we really don't feel we're worthy of happiness and there's so much conditioning around that. And then I honestly think these days so many people have gone through some kind of trauma, which is sometimes sharp and clear, a terrible incident, accident, a horrible thing happens. Sometimes it's slower and chronic. I've had people tell me that the most traumatic force in their lives was growing up in poverty. And I just think a lot about the residue on one's nervous system.

And I think it's not a question of personal fault to where... I say all this because one of the communities that I have worked with, Fairmount, has been survivors of gun violence. And I remember we had a retreat up here in Barre, Mass for that community, and there were a number of people. Some had been shot themselves. Some had lost a child, some had been teachers, maybe a school shooting. I mean, there were many kinds of people and it was all a terrible story and a reality. And I was talking to this mom whose son had been killed and she was in this terrible sort of fight with God, given her faith tradition and her background. And she really felt that she was at fault because she couldn't kind of give over what had happened in a way of faith and that she was too this and too that and very self denigrating about it.

And then in the context of this retreat, we're having there was a lecture by somebody about the vagus nerve. And the effect of trauma on the body, on the nervous system. And I thought it was a little long, the talk and it was a little bit detailed the talk perhaps, but this woman, this very same woman came up to me afterwards and she was completely radiant. And she said to me, "It's just my nervous system. That's what it is. It's not my lack of faith. It's not my inability to... It's my nervous system." And I'll never forget that. Because it's true. And I mean obviously there're layers and layers and layers of the effects of something terrible like that. But we can't discount just the sheer nervous system and that there are ways of healing that, there are ways of coming to a greater state of balance. And that will give us a lot of inner strength.

Morra Aarons-Me...: You recommend two steps when you feel anxious. One, distinguishing between anxiety and fear and two, applying an antidote. Talk us through that.

Sharon Salzberg: Given what we were just talking about, there are certain ways of breathing, for example, where researchers say that... I mean the main thing is that your out breath needs to be longer than your in breath.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Why distinguish between anxiety and fear though, first?

Sharon Salzberg: Well, I mean, I think it depends, some people do and some people don't. Within the Buddhist psychology, which is something that I trained in, there are different energy imbalances that are talked about and that they're energy imbalances. And so if we have too much energy in our system for the amount of calm or concentration, we will get anxious. If we have too much calm for the amount of energy will get kind of slothful and disengaged. So anxiety's not seen as a flaw or a you've got to clean up your act kind of thing or why are you so upset. It's an energy imbalance.

And so the remedy, or the antidote in that way would be trying to change the balance. It's not talking yourself out of it and it's not trying to talk yourself down, it's changing the actual balance so that the energy calms down or gets channeled and is not so free floating. And so that the calm deepens. And so the fear, I think, would be much more specific. Anxiety is like that imbalance and the fear is taking cognitive form. Like I'm not going to be able to pay my rent next year.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Right. Right. Got it.

Sharon Salzberg: Something like that. And that, I mean fear, isn't all bad either. That might point to things in life that really need to shift, but it also can... I mean, the thing I say about fear, for example, that I've learned is that we can get very personal insights into the roots of fear for ourselves. So what I've seen sitting in meditation, just looking at fear and that means looking at it in my body, what does it feel like, watching the fear movie play out. No commentary, no judgment, just what's happening, how does this work in me?

What I've seen is that despite the world's pronouncement, which is also true, that we're afraid of the unknown, I'm actually not that afraid of the unknown. I'm afraid when I think I do know, and it's going to be really bad. And so that's the place where I do tell stories to myself. That's the catastrophizing. Like I'm going back to my apartment in New York City where I've been paying rent by the way all this time. Okay. And I haven't been there in eight months and I heard that if you turn on the water in the sink after eight months or 10 months or a year that you can get Legionnaires' disease. What are the symptoms of Legionnaires' disease? How will I know? And then if I remind myself you know what, you don't know. This is just imagination. Then I relax and I feel space. I think, hey, I don't know. So for those stories are more the root of the fear than anything.

Morra Aarons-Me...: And is it just looking at the story and accepting that you don't know because you don't, you could get Legionnaire's disease, I guess.

Sharon Salzberg: Right. But that's not something I can deal with now. It also depends on your overall vision. It's like I have a friend who was hiking a million years ago and trekking in Nepal and they were afraid of getting a blister they said, so they talked to their guide. And the guide basically said, "You can suffer with a blister all along in anticipation and then suffer when you actually get the blister, or you can just leave the anticipation and suffer once."

Morra Aarons-Me...: Oh, I love that.

Sharon Salzberg: Yeah. It's good.

Morra Aarons-Me...: My last question for you is a favor for our listeners who get anxious because they are anxious. So many of us live with anxiety and especially during the work day, I think, because this is a show about work. We get so scared that something is going to make us panic and take us off track that we just get frozen, I guess. And I'm curious if you could author a short meditation or breath piece or just something that they could use?

Sharon Salzberg: Sure. What I was saying before was that there are certain... Often in meditation with the breath, we just use the normal natural breath and that's fine, because that will be grounding and help. But there are certain breath tools that are described by researchers as moving the emphasis away from the sympathetic nervous system to the parasympathetic nervous system. So your panic will start to ease, your blood pressure will go down. Things like that. And so that is the major rule of that. There are many fancy ways of doing it, but the major thing is that your out breath needs to be longer than your in breath, and your whole system will start to change.

So we can do a few moments if you like of a practice because it can be inclusive of other things. The whole idea is we've got this energy, it's kind of running wild. We want to balance it out with greater centeredness or more groundedness. And then we have the benefit of the energy actually, without it being so intense. So you can sit comfortably, you can close your eyes or not. You don't have to. And we'll take a few just normal breaths without trying to change it or manipulate it in any way, see where you feel the breath most distinctly the nostrils, the chest or the abdomen. And then for a few moments, see if you can breathe in that way that I described where the out breath is longer than the in breath. People's breath length is different, but maybe breathe into the count of three, breathe out to the count of five or something like that. Whatever works for you.

Feel what's happening in your body. Feel what's happening. It's kind of that energy that you may have been feeling. And even with your eyes closed, if they are, notice what you're seeing. You may see with eyes closed different patterns of light or different shadings. If your eyes are open, of course you see whatever is in front of you. Notice what you see. Notice what you hear. I'm noticing the sound of the rain right now. Feel your body posture sitting. Feel your hands touching, or maybe your hands touching your knee some place where there's already contact. And then you can start again, normal breath. And then the kind of conscious breath, or the out breath longer than the in breath. And then a little tour of our sensory impressions. Okay. Thank you.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Is that the rain? Oh, it sounds amazing. I was listening to it.

Sharon Salzberg: That's the rain. Yeah.

Morra Aarons-Me...: Sharon. Sharon Salzberg. I just want to thank you very much and wish you a wonderful 2022.

Sharon Salzberg: Thank you so much. Thank you for doing this.